During the CX Summit, Shawn Li, Vice President of Demand & Partnerships at Flip, sat down with Michael Ludwig, a customer experience expert formerly with Hexclad Cookware. Michael credits getting his start in CX to his first job, working at a hardware store in high school. Along the way he has worked in tech and direct-to-consumer models as well, amassing a wealth of knowledge spanning multiple industries.

They discussed taking AI beyond table stakes. Check out their discussion!

This interview has been edited for clarity.

 

Shawn: It sounds like Ace Hardware was foundational for you. How did it influence your approach later in your career?

Michael: It really did set the tone. But each job after that built on this mindset. I’ve never believed the customer is always right. I believe in doing the right thing for the customer and for the business. Sometimes, that means helping the customer understand why a certain decision was made. We don’t always do a great job of educating customers on why, and that communication gap can create friction.

Shawn: That’s a powerful distinction. We’re definitely going to explore that more. But first—since you're known for saying that the best partnerships are like marriages—how do you approach working with vendors and partners?

Michael: When I meet with vendors, I’m not just looking at what they can do for me right now. I want partners who can grow with me as I build a world-class customer experience. We’re all aligned on the goal of taking care of the customer. But I don’t wait on vendors to bring innovation to me—I push them. A good partnership is reciprocal. We build together in a way that benefits both my brand and their roadmap.

Shawn: I love that. You're not just curating, you're creating. You're not waiting for the product to evolve; you're co-developing it. Tell us more about that mindset.

Michael: I learned this at Lexus. Sometimes customers would come in with concerns about how a feature worked. We’d explain that it was operating as designed, but not as desired. That stuck with me, and I’ve used it when working with vendors. Many tools work as they were designed, but those designs aren’t always aligned with what customers actually want.

One example: I was taking escalated calls and leaving voicemails. But because of spam issues, customers often wouldn’t pick up unknown numbers. When they called back, there was no seamless way to reconnect them with me. The system was operating as designed, but not as desired. So I worked with the vendor to create a custom intent if a customer called back asking for me, they’d be routed directly to my personal queue. It made the experience feel more human and personalized.

Shawn: That’s a brilliant fix, and I love how it ties to the mission you mentioned earlier. You’re validating customer needs and finding ways to bridge the gap between product design and actual experience.

Michael: Exactly. At Lexus, everyone memorized the mission statement, which ends with “treat every customer like a guest in your own home.” That’s guided me ever since. If a friend called you back after you left them a voicemail, you wouldn’t send them to an IVR. You’d pick up the phone.

Shawn: That hospitality mindset shows up clearly in your work. And it’s not just about meeting basic expectations. It’s about making AI and the entire customer experience feel personal and human. You’ve said you don’t see AI as replacing agents, but as empowering them. Can you elaborate?

Michael: Absolutely. AI isn’t here to replace humans, it’s here to remove the busywork. It can handle repetitive, low-value tasks so agents can focus on the more complex and sensitive issues. AI should help by suggesting responses, summarizing conversations, translating where needed, and surfacing past milestones so agents have full context. We want agents to sound like they know the customer, not like they’re starting from scratch.

Shawn: And from your point of view, what would it take for voice AI to be 10x better?

Michael: Today, voice AI does a great job at the start of the call—predicting intent using signals from platforms like Shopify or help desks. But where it can improve is in the middle and end of the conversation. For instance, after a call, the AI should summarize the interaction like a human agent would. “Here’s what I heard. A specialist will follow up within X days.” That extra human touch makes a big difference.

It could also be more proactive. If a customer with a known abandoned cart calls, why not say, “Are you calling about the items in your cart?” That’s where the real value lies—taking what a great agent would do and teaching AI to do it.

Shawn: That’s such a powerful example. You’re clearly showing that efficiency and empathy can coexist. What do you say to leaders who think they have to choose between brand experience and ROI?

Michael: That’s a false choice. AI helps reduce handle time, provides 24/7 support without overtime costs, and improves agent efficiency. That’s clear ROI. And the rollout matters too—start small, test internally, move to public-facing interactions when you're confident. Measure results against the desired outcome.

Shawn: You’ve been at the forefront of this work. What’s driven you to lead so boldly in this space?

Michael: Honestly, no one told me how to build a world-class CX team. I started by thinking about the experience I wanted to deliver, not what others were doing. Then I worked with my partners to make that vision real.

It’s not one-size-fits-all. A $600 AOV customer may need a different approach than someone spending $9.99. But if you start by defining the experience and working backwards, you’ll find the right tools and tactics. In one case, we saw that customers who interacted with our support team had an LTV about 20% higher than those who didn’t. That insight shaped how we thought about engagement—it proved that great support drives growth.

Shawn: That’s such an important insight. If someone listening wants to be a leader like you, a pioneer, what advice would you give?

Michael: Start by defining the experience you want to deliver. Don’t let vendors or industry norms dictate your roadmap. Try new things. Work backwards from outcomes. And most importantly, stay true to your values.

Everyone has their own path. There’s no single way to become a “flipping legend.” But if you stay focused on the customer and build with intention, you’ll create something that really lasts.

Shawn: I love that. You’ve truly brought your mission to life: staying true to yourself, treating customers like guests in your own home, and pushing the boundaries of what AI and CX can do together.

 

Closing thoughts

Michael’s approach to customer experience is rooted in empathy, innovation, and staying true to your brand mission. His vision for AI isn’t about replacement - it’s about enhancement. By bridging the gap between design and desire, he’s shown how AI can deliver faster, more personal, and more meaningful service. Here are his four top tips that you can use to enhance your brand’s customer experience:

  • Design AI to operate as desired, not just as designed
  • Treat every customer like a guest in your own home
  • Use AI to empower agents, not eliminate them
  • Co-create with partners to push innovation forward

Ready to take the next step with your brand’s customer support technology? See how Kustomer can help you scale effectively.